Jesus paid it all!

There is an understanding which we must embrace to put is in the right place to walk with God. It is extremely well described in this clip.

The love of God for the world is universal. He has called whosoever will. regardless of your performance, Jesus has made a way to bring us into a relationship with the Father that goes far beyond what we can ask or think. This work, which we receive by faith, a gift from God to us, begins simply with believing that Jesus Christ is the son of God and that he died for your sins and rose from the dead on the third day. In this the work of God, being born again, washed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, is accomplished.

This new creation in Christ Jesus is received by faith, the acknowledging that the work is the work of Jesus, it is the gift of God and not about what you have done.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

So, when you come to God, He receives you because of what Christ has done. You are clean because of the word he spoke to you. It is his blood which gains us access into his holy presence.

Antinomianism

Antinomianism derives from two Greek words: anti, meaning "against," and nomos, meaning "law." It thus literally means "against the law." Theologically, antinomianism is the belief that Christians are under no obligation to observe any part of the Old Testament laws, particularly the "moral law." This concept—rejecting the "harsh" God of the Old Testament in favor of the "loving" God of the New Testament—has appeared throughout church history. While very few embrace its most extreme implications, its influence can still be seen in many circles.

A form of antinomianism seems to have existed even in Paul’s day. We see this in his writings, where he refutes the idea that a Christian’s life should continue in sin. For example, in Romans 6:1-2, he asks, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Similarly, in Romans 6:15, Paul again rejects the idea: "What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

A prominent early figure associated with this heresy was Marcion (around 144 AD). Marcion controversially taught that the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament were not the same. He sought to remove much of the Old Testament from Christian theology, a stance which was vehemently rejected by the early Church.

The term antinomianism first came to prominence during a controversy between Martin Luther and Johannes Agricola. Agricola, interpreting Luther’s doctrine of salvation by grace alone, went to the extreme of rejecting the Old Testament law as no longer applicable to Christians. Luther responded by writing Against the Antinomians, marking the first known use of the term.

In the early English colonies of North America, the term was used to describe certain Christian groups who were seen as heretical for refusing to follow the laws of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, which was founded by the church. Anne Hutchinson, a prominent preacher, was exiled from Massachusetts for her radical views and labeled an "antinomian." While this application of the term is different from the doctrinal focus we are concerned with here, it reflects how the term has been used in various contexts, even to describe groups like the Anabaptists.

For our purposes, we are primarily concerned with the doctrine that the moral law of the Old Testament is no longer binding on Christians today. It's crucial to define our terms clearly. This specific form of antinomianism is best understood through Martin Luther's 16th-century perspective. Luther rejected the idea that grace permits Christians to remain in sin, and Johannes Agricola later repented for his error.

Jesus, in Matthew’s Gospel, provides clear teaching on this issue. In Matthew 5:17-19, He says:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Repentance remains the key to applying the blood of Jesus for the removal of sin. As Revelation 3:19-21 says:

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

The wages of sin remain death, and repentance—turning back to God—is still required. The ways of God are unchanging throughout Scripture.

Hello

 It has been another extended pause not posting here. I intend ti get serious about writing and doing studies again; not a New Years resolution, but I do intend to be active here.

I have spent a lot of time reading and editing, but that is no excuse for not putting something up here.

S Graham

PSALM 63

A PSALM OF DAVID, WHEN HE WAS IN THE WILDERNESS OF JUDAH.

63:1 O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee:

my soul thirsteth for thee,

my flesh longeth for thee

in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;

2 To see thy power and thy glory,

so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary.

The desire to dwell in the presence of God overwhelms David as he dwells in exile he cries out for God

3 Because thy lovingkindness is better than life,

my lips shall praise thee.

4 Thus will I bless thee while I live:

I will lift up my hands in thy name.

Relationship with the Lord of life is expressed in what can only be described as rapturous praise!

5 My soul shall be satisfied as with marrow and fatness;

and my mouth shall praise thee with joyful lips:

6 When I remember thee upon my bed,

and meditate on thee in the night watches.

7 Because thou hast been my help,

therefore in the shadow of thy wings will I rejoice.

Clearly all desire and satisfaction is met in the relationship which David had with God

8 My soul followeth hard after thee:

thy right hand upholdeth me.

9 But those that seek my soul, to destroy it,

shall go into the lower parts of the earth.

10 They shall fall by the sword:

they shall be a portion for foxes.

11 But the king shall rejoice in God;

every one that sweareth by him shall glory:

but the mouth of them that speak lies shall be stopped.

In whatever state or distress of life we may be found, there is a calling out to God which will refresh us. Find your encouragement in his presence and in the salvation that he brings. 

Esau and the Edomites

Gen 25:9 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:... 30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom. 31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright. 32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me? 33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob. 34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

This is the most famous passage about Esau. He was a descendant of Abraham, and as we will see, the Edomites as a nation did not follow on to know the Lord. His descendents had an opportunity to be blessed within the blessing of Abraham, and yet they ultimately failed, oppressing their brother and being cursed. We will see their start as a nation, their role in expelling giants, and then subsequently their treacherous treatment of Israel. David brought them into the blessed kingdom, but they rebelled and were cut off.

I did a similar look at Moab previously; See kingdom of Moab Here.

Gen 36 descendents of Esau listed as part of the descendents of Abraham.

1 Chr 1:43 Now these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom before any king reigned over the children of Israel; Bela the son of Beor: and the name of his city was Dinhabah. 44 And when Bela was dead, Jobab the son of Zerah of Bozrah reigned in his stead. 45 And when Jobab was dead, Husham of the land of the Temanites reigned in his stead. 46 And when Husham was dead, Hadad the son of Bedad, which smote Midian in the field of Moab, reigned in his stead: and the name of his city was Avith. 47 And when Hadad was dead, Samlah of Masrekah reigned in his stead. 48 And when Samlah was dead, Shaul of Rehoboth by the river reigned in his stead. 49 And when Shaul was dead, Baalhanan the son of Achbor reigned in his stead. 50 And when Baalhanan was dead, Hadad reigned in his stead: and the name of his city was Pai; and his wife's name was Mehetabel, the daughter of Matred, the daughter of Mezahab.

51 Hadad died also. And the dukes of Edom were; duke Timnah, duke Aliah, duke Jetheth, 52 Duke Aholibamah, duke Elah, duke Pinon, 53 Duke Kenaz, duke Teman, duke Mibzar, 54 Duke Magdiel, duke Iram. These are the dukes of Edom.

God brought out his people from Egypt with a mighty hand, the purpose to drive out the Canaanites. Edom and Moab had opportunity to remain.

Ex 15:15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.

God had Moses reach out to the Edomites, but instead of welcoming them, they refused to let them pass. You can see they did not trust Israel, but this was because they did not believe God.

Num 20:14 And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us: 15 How our fathers went down into Egypt, and we have dwelt in Egypt a long time; and the Egyptians vexed us, and our fathers: 16 And when we cried unto the LORD, he heard our voice, and sent an angel, and hath brought us forth out of Egypt: and, behold, we are in Kadesh, a city in the uttermost of thy border: 17 Let us pass, I pray thee, through thy country: we will not pass through the fields, or through the vineyards, neither will we drink of the water of the wells: we will go by the king's high way, we will not turn to the right hand nor to the left, until we have passed thy borders. 18 And Edom said unto him, Thou shalt not pass by me, lest I come out against thee with the sword. 19 And the children of Israel said unto him, We will go by the high way: and if I and my cattle drink of thy water, then I will pay for it: I will only, without doing any thing else, go through on my feet. 20 And he said, Thou shalt not go through. And Edom came out against him with much people, and with a strong hand. 21 Thus Edom refused to give Israel passage through his border: wherefore Israel turned away from him.

Num 21:4; 24:18; 33:37; 34:3; Josh 15:1, 21; Judges 5:4; 11:17-18 all speak of Israel going around Edom and not encroaching upon its borders. So many times this fact is mentioned that it must be extremely important. But even though they refused, Israel was commanded to treat them as a brother.

Deut 23:7 Thou shalt not abhor an Edomite; for he is thy brother: thou shalt not abhor an Egyptian; because thou wast a stranger in his land. 8 The children that are begotten of them shall enter into the congregation of the LORD in their third generation.

Many nations were to be cut off, but Edom to be embraced.

In Deut we have a detailed account of this interaction.

Deut 2:1 Then we turned, and took our journey into the wilderness by the way of the Red sea, as the LORD spake unto me: and we compassed mount Seir many days. 2 And the LORD spake unto me, saying, 3 Ye have compassed this mountain long enough: turn you northward. 4 And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore: 5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession. 6 Ye shall buy meat of them for money, that ye may eat; and ye shall also buy water of them for money, that ye may drink. 7 For the LORD thy God hath blessed thee in all the works of thy hand: he knoweth thy walking through this great wilderness: these forty years the LORD thy God hath been with thee; thou hast lacked nothing. 8 And when we passed by from our brethren the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, through the way of the plain from Elath, and from Eziongaber, we turned and passed by the way of the wilderness of Moab. 9 And the LORD said unto me, Distress not the Moabites, neither contend with them in battle: for I will not give thee of their land for a possession; because I have given Ar unto the children of Lot for a possession. 10 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; 11 Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims. 12 The Horims also dwelt in Seir beforetime; but the children of Esau succeeded them, when they had destroyed them from before them, and dwelt in their stead; as Israel did unto the land of his possession, which the LORD gave unto them. 13 Now rise up, said I, and get you over the brook Zered. And we went over the brook Zered. 14 And the space in which we came from Kadeshbarnea, until we were come over the brook Zered, was thirty and eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out from among the host, as the LORD sware unto them. 15 For indeed the hand of the LORD was against them, to destroy them from among the host, until they were consumed.

Deut 2:22 As he did to the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, when he destroyed the Horims from before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead even unto this day:

Josh 24:4 And I gave unto Isaac Jacob and Esau: and I gave unto Esau mount Seir, to possess it; but Jacob and his children went down into Egypt.

So God kept his promises to Edom and to Moab and Ammon, they were treated well, even though they refused to be a blessing themselves.

During the time of the judges Moab would oppress the Israelites, but apparantly Edom did not. However in later times we see Saul contending with enemies on every side, including the Edomites.

1 Sam 14:46 Then Saul went up from following the Philistines: and the Philistines went to their own place...47 So Saul took the kingdom over Israel, and fought against all his enemies on every side, against Moab, and against the children of Ammon, and against Edom, and against the kings of Zobah, and against the Philistines: and whithersoever he turned himself, he vexed them. 48 And he gathered an host, and smote the Amalekites, and delivered Israel out of the hands of them that spoiled them.

He began to fulfill the promise that Israel had failed to do under the Judges and Shiloh, gaining the extent of the kingdom promised to Abraham.

David continued the policy:

2 Sam 8:14a And he put garrisons in Edom; throughout all Edom put he garrisons, and all they of Edom became David's servants.

1 Chr 18:11 Them also king David dedicated unto the LORD, with the silver and the gold that he brought from all these nations; from Edom, and from Moab, and from the children of Ammon, and from the Philistines, and from Amalek. 12 Moreover Abishai the son of Zeruiah slew of the Edomites in the valley of salt eighteen thousand.

13 And he put garrisons in Edom; and all the Edomites became David's servants.

See the extent of David's kingdom

Solomon controlled Edom

1 Ki 9:26 And king Solomon made a navy of ships in Eziongeber, which is beside Eloth, on the shore of the Red sea, in the land of Edom. (2 Chr 8:17)

But Solomon began to violate the commands of the Lord.

1 Ki 11:1; Solomon took wives of them

1 Ki 11:14 And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom. 15 For it came to pass, when David was in Edom, and Joab the captain of the host was gone up to bury the slain, after he had smitten every male in Edom; 16 (For six months did Joab remain there with all Israel, until he had cut off every male in Edom:) 17 That Hadad fled, he and certain Edomites of his father's servants with him, to go into Egypt; Hadad being yet a little child. 18 And they arose out of Midian, and came to Paran: and they took men with them out of Paran, and they came to Egypt, unto Pharaoh king of Egypt; which gave him an house, and appointed him victuals, and gave him land. 19 And Hadad found great favour in the sight of Pharaoh, so that he gave him to wife the sister of his own wife, the sister of Tahpenes the queen. 20 And the sister of Tahpenes bare him Genubath his son, whom Tahpenes weaned in Pharaoh's house: and Genubath was in Pharaoh's household among the sons of Pharaoh. 21 And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers, and that Joab the captain of the host was dead, Hadad said to Pharaoh, Let me depart, that I may go to mine own country. 22 Then Pharaoh said unto him, But what hast thou lacked with me, that, behold, thou seekest to go to thine own country? And he answered, Nothing: howbeit let me go in any wise.

After Solomon the divided kingdoms had up and down relations with Edom

1 Ki 22:45 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoshaphat, and his might that he shewed, and how he warred, are they not written in the book of the chronicles of the kings of Judah? 46 And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land. 47 There was then no king in Edom: a deputy was king.

King of Edom working with Israel and Judah

2 Ki 3:6 And king Jehoram went out of Samaria the same time, and numbered all Israel. 7 And he went and sent to Jehoshaphat the king of Judah, saying, The king of Moab hath rebelled against me: wilt thou go with me against Moab to battle? And he said, I will go up: I am as thou art, my people as thy people, and my horses as thy horses. 8 And he said, Which way shall we go up? And he answered, The way through the wilderness of Edom. 9 So the king of Israel went, and the king of Judah, and the king of Edom: and they fetched a compass of seven days' journey: and there was no water for the host, and for the cattle that followed them...on through verse 26

2 Chr 21:8 In his days the Edomites revolted from under the dominion of Judah, and made themselves a king. 9 Then Jehoram went forth with his princes, and all his chariots with him: and he rose up by night, and smote the Edomites which compassed him in, and the captains of the chariots. 10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day.

2 Ki 8:16 And in the fifth year of Joram the son of Ahab king of Israel, Jehoshaphat being then king of Judah, Jehoram the son of Jehoshaphat king of Judah began to reign...20 In his days Edom revolted from under the hand of Judah, and made a king over themselves. 21 So Joram went over to Zair, and all the chariots with him: and he rose by night, and smote the Edomites which compassed him about, and the captains of the chariots: and the people fled into their tents. 22 Yet Edom revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. 2 Chr 25:19-20)

2 Ki 14:7 He (Amaziah) slew of Edom in the valley of salt ten thousand, and took Selah by war, and called the name of it Joktheel unto this day. (Also verse 10)

2 Chr 28:16 At that time did king Ahaz send unto the kings of Assyria to help him. 17 For again the Edomites had come and smitten Judah, and carried away captives.

Lastly we see them working with the Chaldeans to destroy Israel

Jer 49:7 Concerning Edom, thus saith the LORD of hosts;

Is wisdom no more in Teman? is counsel perished from the prudent? is their wisdom vanished?

8 Flee ye, turn back, dwell deep, O inhabitants of Dedan; for I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, the time that I will visit him....

13 For I have sworn by myself, saith the LORD, that Bozrah shall become a desolation, a reproach, a waste, and a curse; and all the cities thereof shall be perpetual wastes...

17 Also Edom shall be a desolation: every one that goeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss at all the plagues thereof.

18 As in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbour cities thereof, saith the LORD, no man shall abide there, neither shall a son of man dwell in it....

20 Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD, that he hath taken against Edom; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make their habitations desolate with them.

21 The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red sea.

22 Behold, he shall come up and fly as the eagle, and spread his wings over Bozrah: and at that day shall the heart of the mighty men of Edom be as the heart of a woman in her pangs. Edom will be punished as Judah is destroyed and they rejoice, sudden destruction is upon them.

Lam 4:21 Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked. 22 The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins.

Ezek 25:12 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because that Edom hath dealt against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and hath greatly offended, and revenged himself upon them; 13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also stretch out mine hand upon Edom, and will cut off man and beast from it; and I will make it desolate from Teman; and they of Dedan shall fall by the sword. 14 And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance, saith the Lord GOD. (see 32:29)

Joel 3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

Amos 1:11-12 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he did pursue his brother with the sword, and did cast off all pity, and his anger did tear perpetually, and he kept his wrath for ever: But I will send a fire upon Teman, which shall devour the palaces of Bozrah.

Amos 9:11-12 In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the LORD that doeth this.

Obadiah 1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom;

entire book devoted to judgment upon Edom.

Mal 1:4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

Jesus will come from Edom in the end of days to execute final judgment

Psalm 63:1 Who is this that cometh from Edom,

with dyed garments from Bozrah?

this that is glorious in his apparel,

travelling in the greatness of his strength?

I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

Edom and the Chaldeans

This is the beginning of a look at the history of Edom. The descendents of the brother of Jacob, Esau. God had promised to bless the descendents of Abraham, and Esau would be included. What we will see is that through rebellion and strife they fought with their brother and received only judgment. Esau never had the blessing and he sold the birthright. What did God say about Edom and what opportunities did they have?

This post is solely about one episode in the story of these peoples, the destruction of Jerusalem, and how the scripture shows us that Edom allied with Babylon to destroy it. Key; it seems that it was Edom who urged destruction of the temple, and may have been the party to get it done.

First the records of the destruction:

2Ki 25:8 And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, which is the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem: 9 And he burnt the house of the LORD, and the king's house, and all the houses of Jerusalem, and every great man's house burnt he with fire. 10 And all the army of the Chaldees, that were with the captain of the guard, brake down the walls of Jerusalem round about. 11 Now the rest of the people that were left in the city, and the fugitives that fell away to the king of Babylon, with the remnant of the multitude, did Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard carry away. 12 But the captain of the guard left of the poor of the land to be vinedressers and husbandmen.

2Chr 36:19 And they burnt the house of God, and brake down the wall of Jerusalem, and burnt all the palaces thereof with fire, and destroyed all the goodly vessels thereof.

(they being the king of the Chaldees)

Jer 39:8 And the Chaldeans burned the king's house, and the houses of the people, with fire, and brake down the walls of Jerusalem. 9 Then Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard carried away captive into Babylon the remnant of the people that remained in the city, and those that fell away, that fell to him, with the rest of the people that remained. 10 But Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard left of the poor of the people, which had nothing, in the land of Judah, and gave them vineyards and fields at the same time.

Jer 52:12 Now in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month, which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, which served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem, 13 And burned the house of the LORD, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, and all the houses of the great men, burned he with fire: 14 And all the army of the Chaldeans, that were with the captain of the guard, brake down all the walls of Jerusalem round about.

So we see that here in summary that the Babylonians (Chaldeans) had destroyed Jerusalem. Yet it is also noted that Edom played a role in this destruction. See the following scriptures:

Lament for Jerusalem

Ps 137:5 If I forget thee, O Jerusalem,

let my right hand forget her cunning.

6 If I do not remember thee,

let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalem above my chief joy.

7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem;

who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.

8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed;

happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee

as thou hast served us.

9 Happy shall he be, that taketh

and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Obadiah

1:1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom;...

9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed,

to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.

10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee,

and thou shalt be cut off for ever.

11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side,

in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces,

and foreigners entered into his gates,

and cast lots upon Jerusalem,

even thou wast as one of them.

In the day that Jerusalem was destroyed, Edom was a participant in the destruction. Edom was a part of what it appears was a coalition against Judah. They joined with the enemies of their brother and it explains much about how they are treated in the last days.

Lastly see this in the OT apocrypha:

1 Esdras 4:45 You also have vowed to build up the temple, which the Edomites burned when Judea was made desolate by the Chaldees

This statement shows that the Edomites were the ones that burned the temple, they called, in Obadiah, raze it, raze it, and they brought fullness of destruction upon Jerusalem.

Appendix:

Oddity, was temple destroyed after the city? Was it the Edomites who said raze it because it continued a place that men would go to worship and that finally Neduchadrezzer let it be destroyed at the urging of the Edomites?

Jer 41Worshippers coming after the destruction, why is temple already destroyed?

key question, how were they coming to worship in the house of the Lord if it was destroyed?

Jer 41:5 That there came certain from Shechem, from Shiloh, and from Samaria, even fourscore men, having their beards shaven, and their clothes rent, and having cut themselves, with offerings and incense in their hand, to bring them to the house of the LORD.

The Foreknowledge of God

    Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I want to look at this question. Who is the "whom" that he (God) did foreknow? He not only knew him/them before, but predestinated a plan for him/them to be conformed to the image of his son and therefore be the firstborn among many brethren. What will be shown here is all the scripture which is found using these words and ultimately what the passage above tells us.

FOREKNOW

Gr. prog-in-os-ko; comes from 2 words, before and knowledge. (occurs 5 times)

    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow...

    Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

    Acts 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; 5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

    2 Pet 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

So we see this word in the sense of knowing someone, Israel, Paul, or some things, before the current time. It actually does not speak so much of knowledge of the future, but of knowledge possessed of or in the past.

But here is the most important example of prog-in-os-ko for our purposes.

    1Pet 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Here the word is translated foreordained, but really foreknown is better. It clearly speaks of Christ who was known before, but manifested in these last times for us. This is the same as what is found in Rom 8:29; Jesus was foreknown and came down conformed to the image of the son.  In Jn 1:1-2 and in 1 Jn 1:1-3 we see the emphasis that The word was with God in the beginning; the Father knew the Word before anything was created. The ultimate foreknowledge. We also see in Heb 1:5 a particular day in which Jesus was begotten.

PREDESTINATE

Gr. pro-or-id-zo; from 2 words, before and to appoint or decree (occurs 6 times)

    Acts 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Speaking to God)

Rom 8:29 and 8:30; see above

    1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

    Eph 1:5 …predestinated us unto the adoption of children…

    Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

This passage in Ephesians is very similar in character to Rom 8:28-30. It is the clearly predetermined plan to gather all together in Jesus. This predestination is clearly that all would be brought together in Christ.

We see that whom he knew before he also predetermined to a purpose, and part of that was to be conformed...

CONFORMED

Gr. soom-mor-fos; again from 2 words, union and form.

Only seen this way in Rom 8:29 and Phil 3:21

    Phil 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

From this we could get the idea that the conforming of Rom 8:29 is our being conformed to be like his glorious body, but that is not the context of Rom 8. If we add to our list of words the solo version of "form" we can see Jesus being conformed into the likeness of men.

Gr. mor-fay; form.

    Mark 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

    Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

We see Jesus being in 2 forms; that of God and then being made into that of a servant in the likeness of men. He was determined to leave the form of God and be born into the form of men. The Word became the son of God through a miraculous birth, the promise much greater than Isaac. He was made in the likeness (Rom 8:3) of sinful man, the seed of David according to the flesh (Rom 1:3), so that he could condemn sin and then die and be resurrected so we could all be brought into the same fellowship with him, joining with him as one of his many brethren.

SO, who did God foreknow in Rom 8?

It is clear that Jesus, the Word, was the one who was foreknown. In addition it was determined before by the Father that he would be conformed to the likeness of his son for the expressed purpose of his being the firstborn among many brethren. This is the goal which God purposed before.

    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This can be read as (and/with the one predestinated, THEM he also called). This THEM is referring back to Rom 8:28, THEM who are called according to his purpose (or plan). The word translated Moreover is actually a particle or conjunction, often rendered as and in a form of continuance. So the sense is that He was foreknown, predestinated and "next" them he also called. This finishes the thought of 8:28.

Try reading it like this:

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose,...(Christ is the firstborn among many brethren)... them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The called have in them the righteousness and glory of Jesus, the ultimate statement of everything working together for good.

So in terms of God and his foreknowledge, we understand that it speaks of knowing what was before, not knowing what will happen in the future. God did not know me before, (He can know one from their mother's womb, Gal 1:15) but he knew the Word before and he predestined a plan that includes whosoever will!